Question:
MILITARY: In the film 'Fury' an American tank used in WWII is showcased! Can your 3 answers add clarity?
Eric B
2015-01-27 21:50:23 UTC
WWII historians,

WWII military tank engineers or experts,



PREFACE:
Watched a riveting film on World War 2, newly released to rentals, 'Fury' starring Brad Pitt among others.




Q 1. What type or model of American tank was used in the film?

~ It was stated in film's beginning that it was inferior** to the German tanks in the film, referred to as Tigers (Panzers?)

** Pitt and his tank crewmen could only disable the Tigers by hitting it directly from the stern / rear of the German tanks.




Q 2. Care to divulge any as to the ammunition used on the American WWII tanks? (there was some SERIOUS calibres being discharged by these old tanks!)



Q 3. How does the American Abrams tank compare to its German counterpart, today circa 2015?













source: curiosity and a respect for the American military
Six answers:
caspian88
2015-01-27 22:27:55 UTC
The M4 Sherman was in a totally different class than the Tiger I - for one, the Tiger weighed nearly twice as much. The Tiger I, in a one on one scenario without battlefield factors taken into account, was obviously a deadlier vehicle than the M4 Sherman, featuring thicker armor (if using an obsolete armor scheme) and a bigger, more penetrating gun. However, that's a stupid way to evaluate the relative effectiveness of a tank.



Tanks are merely a component of a quality army - they fill a certain role, but other weapons systems, and the battlefield itself, have an impact on the effectiveness of any tank. The Sherman had several significant advantages over the Tiger:



- It was less expensive, and could thus be built in greater numbers;

- It was more reliable, and thus was more likely to actually be on the battlefield when needed;

- It was more advanced, featuring superior fire control and a more effective armor scheme;

- It was more upgradable - there's a reason no one used a vehicle similar to the Tiger post-war.



The Sherman was more than capable of doing the job it was designed to do - it could kill the majority of its opponents without serious difficulty (most German vehicles by 1944 were the Panzer IV and StuG III), was an excellent infantry support vehicle, and was far more likely to actually be available to fight than any Tiger. A gun with superior anti-tank performance would have been nice, but 3/4 of the shots fired by Shermans were against unarmored targets or fortifications, and the superior high-explosive performance of the Sherman to the Tiger or Panther lent itself well to the type of war the Allies were fighting.



The M4 Sherman was only inferior to the Tiger or Panther if you place it in an arena without other combat systems or maintenance and logistics problems. The M4 was a superior overall weapon of war, much like the Soviet T-34 - the Tiger or Panther might win a single tank duel, but the M4 and T-34 won battles, campaigns, and wars.



...



WWII Shermans typically came with one of four guns: the 75 mm Gun M3, 76 mm Gun M1, the QF 17 pounder (just over 76 mm), and the 105 mm Howitzer M4.



The 75 mm Gun M3 was mounted on earlier versions of the Sherman. It fired several shells of 75 mm caliber - the primary round was the M48 high explosive round (used against lightly-armored targets, like entrenched infantry, anti-tank guns or artillery, or fortified buildings), but the M3 gun also fired armor piercing shells (anti-tank), canister shells (basically a giant shotgun shell for anti-infantry fire), and smoke or white phosphorus shells (for laying smoke or starting fires).



The 76 mm Gun M1 had superior armor-piercing performance, and was carried on many later variants of the Sherman. However, it had inferior high explosive performance (due to the higher velocity the gun fired its shells at, requiring a tougher shell that could carry less explosive), and thus was not always popular. In addition to the HE, smoke, canister, WP, and standard AP shells, the M1 gun also had access to the high velocity armor piercing (HVAP) shell, but those were typically assigned to tank destroyer battalions and were also quite rare, and Sherman tankers rarely had access to those.



The QF 17 pounder was a British gun, mounted in about 2,000 Shermans (nicknamed the "Firefly") given to the United Kingdom. This gun was similar to the 76 mm Gun M1, but its AP rounds carried a larger explosive charge and thus fired at an even higher velocity. This gave the Firefly even better anti-tank performance, but correspondingly made the Firefly even less capable of fighting enemy infantry - the Firefly thus had a more specialized anti-tank role - replacing all 75 mm-armed Shermans with Firefly's (which is a suggestion I've seriously heard made by laymen) would have made the U.S. Army less capable overall, even if it somewhat improved anti-tank performance. Firefly rounds were also physically bigger, and thus Firefly's could carry less ammo (without doing away with one crew member).



The 105 mm Howitzer M4 was meant as a support gun - basically, it was artillery mounted on a Sherman. This gave American armored divisions extremely reliable and integral mobile artillery support. This gun was used to do everything artillery could do - suppress enemy troops, hit fortified positions, and so on - it could also pop an enemy tank like a balloon if one of those shells hit (due to the extremely large high explosive charge carried), but these tanks were rarely engaged in direct anti-tank combat.



Post-war variants of the Sherman managed to mount 90 mm and even 105 mm anti-tank guns (rather than the shorter howitzers).



Note that any Sherman could take out a Tiger I from normal combat ranges - the Tiger's armor really wasn't that good (it was thick, but also flat). The Tiger could engage from a greater distance, theoretically, but not by a significant amount - tank fire control wasn't good enough to reliably hit a target at more than 800 meters.

...



The American M1 Abrams and the German Leopard 2 are actually very similar vehicles, with similar combat performance - they generally carry the same guns, similar electronics, similar armor, and so on. The main difference is that the Abrams uses a gas turbine engine, while the Leopard uses a more conventional diesel engine - the Leopard is also faster, due to a different design philosophy which emphasizes mobility a bit more than armor. The Abrams is also somewhat more expensive to maintain and operate. However, the two vehicles are again very similar.
John de Witt
2015-01-27 22:57:29 UTC
I haven't seen the film, but I'd be surprised if it isn't some variant of the M-4 Sherman. And the M4A3E8 (Easy eight) wasn't all that inferior to the Pz.Kpfw IV. Its 76 mm gun (the standard for most Shermans was a lower-velocity 75 mm L40 gun) didn't have quite the velocity of the later variants of the Germans' 75, in the IV-F and later variants, or the Pz.Kpfw V. The Sherman was a little too tall, being designed around an engine that required the height, but it wasn't a bad tank. Simple, easy to maintain, and easy to mass-produce. And there's the key: one on one, a Sherman might not have stood up to the PzKpfw V or VI, but the simplicity of the design meant that there were ten or twenty of them for every German tank. Sure, the Mark V and heavy Mark VI had more gun and more armor, but the Tiger (VI) was very cumbersome and less maneuverable, and both the larger German designs suffered from unreliability that wouldn't have been tolerated in the US Army. Just calling the M-4 inferior doesn't do it justice.

Today, the two countries, and the British as well, have exceptionally good tanks of very similar capability. You could start a good bar fight arguing which is best.
MAJ Kev
2015-01-28 09:02:32 UTC
Q 1. Fury is an M4A3E8 - commonly called the "Easy 8". It was the final wartime fielded version of the Sherman. It was the best version until the Israelis fielded their upgraded "Super" Sherman in the 1950s.



The M4A3E8 was inferior to SOME German tanks, and even to those, it was inferior only in some categories. The Tiger was better armored and gunned, but was slower and less maneuverable. The Sherman also enjoyed a higher first round / hit ratio .... but that first round usually did not penetrate. While the Tiger was at it's weakest from behind, the 76mm main gun the Easy 8 had was able to penetrate the Tiger from all sides at some combat ranges. "Panzer" means 'armor' in German and is a generic name for tanks - there is no German tank specifically called a "panzer".



Q 2. Compared to modern main guns, almost all WWII tanks did not use "SERIOUS calibers" - nor were they all that 'serious' in WWII either. Only the Germans and Russians routinely used rounds larger than 76mm, which was the American and British standard at the end of the war. American tanks were capable of firing the following rounds: high explosive (HE), high explosive armor piercing (HEAP), smoke, white phosphorus (WP), canister, and high velocity armor piercing (HVAP) - all of which were fairly common types of rounds then and today.



Q 3. All of the modern western main battle tanks are similar - differing in minor features. Some are slightly better in some areas than others - it is all about national priorities in tank development. The latest version of the German Leopard and American Abrams mainly differ in types of engine. One thing to think about in regards to the Abrams is that we have never lost one due to an enemy tank ....
?
2015-01-28 05:28:39 UTC
1) Fury is an M4A3E8

2) it has a 76mm main gun, two M1919 .30 caliber (30-06) coaxial machine guns (gunner/co-driver) and a roof mounted M2 .50 caliber heavy machine gun.

However, depending on the tank in WW2, the heaviest round fired could have been as small as a an M2 or as large as a 155mm main gun (US T series).

3) The Germans use the Leopard 2A6 while the US uses the M1A2 SEP. Both use similar parts 120mm ammunition and armor. Both were developed in conjunction with one another. The only major difference is the Abrams is powered by a turbine whereas the Leo is a standard diesel.
jeeper_peeper321
2015-01-27 22:10:43 UTC
sherman m-4 medium tank



at the start of the war, it had better armor and better guns



but later on, it was out gunned and had weak armor



but it was fast and manueveral



so the US never saw the need for a new tank



it was very reliable



it fired a 75mm shell, near the end of the war, an upgraded 76mm gun



the abrams is considered to be the best MBT in the world
Smoking Joe
2015-01-27 21:55:15 UTC
I thought it was a very good film. Wasn't it Sherman tanks vs. the far bigger and badder Tiger tanks?


This content was originally posted on Y! Answers, a Q&A website that shut down in 2021.
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